Wednesday, September 5, 2012

Diễn Đàn Giáo Pháp-Are bhikkhunis discriminated against in Buddhism?


Link: http://ask.sirimangalo.org/2218/are-bhikkhunis-discriminated-against-in-buddhism
 Are bhikkhunis discriminated against in Buddhism?

+6 votes

I would like to know more about the status of women and bhikkhunis in the society from a Buddhist perspective, and in particular the status of bhikkhunis in the sangha. I know that the status of bhikkhunis can be much lower than bhikkhus in some Buddhist countries. Why is this and what did the Buddha say about gender equality?
Also, what is the logic behind assigning unequal rules between bhikkhunis and bhikkhus?


Avatar ImageaskedNov 7, 2011in Buddhismby Anna445 points

4 Answers

+6 votes

Buddhism doesn't say much about people's social status; it is more concerned with a person's individual mental development. You won't find any teachings in the tipitaka on social status; there are some teachings on how a husband and wife should treat each other, but they are certainly not meant to be the idea of how society must necessarily be organized.
As to the status of bhikkhunis, most Theravada bhikkhus don't recognize them as "legal", so they really don't have any status to speak of - they are illegitimate, in the eyes of the sangha government. I don't know of any Theravada countries where Bhikkhunis are given any legitimacy by the sangha as a whole. What you may be referring to is the fact that most Buddhist countries have inherited India's gender discrimination, but that doesn't really have anything to do with Buddhist doctrine.
In places like America, where there is of course much more individual freedom of religious expression, the Bhikkhunis are often regarded quite highly by society, I think. @phalanyani might be able to shed some light on that if she ever comes on this forum In fact, I think it fair to say that Buddhists in general (save those in power or robes) tend to regard bhikkhunis quite well.
As to how individual sanghas treat Bhikkhunis, I can only speak of my own "sangha" (three of us: me, myself and I) when I say they are treated as monastics and meditators, with the same status and responsibilities as the bhikkhus: study, practice, teach.
As to the codified status of bhikkhunis, there is something more to be said, of course. The sangha was originally set up to handle male renunciants - the very idea of women going forth was an absurdity before the Buddha came around; the Jain's believed that women were incapable of enlightenment, and Hinduism considered them inferior, unclean, etc.
The Buddha had no such views, but was very clear on the dangers of cross-gender interaction, in terms of sexual attraction and household-based behaviour. So, he made very explicit that the ordination of women would create complications and should be treated with great caution.
The question is, as you ask, why was his answer to place the burden on the women, rather than giving the men more rules as well? There are many potential answers to this question, some better than others:
  1. the Buddha may have been acting in response to the request - if you want x, you have to do y. Since the women were asking for ordination, the Buddha put the burden on them to be careful not to disrupt the existing organization or become a burden on the administration. There are a few gender/sexuality based rules that might fall into this category, and the one limiting the number of ordinations could be to ensure quality didn't become a victim to quantity.
  2. the Buddha seems to have been sensitive to the special status and needs of women - the rule against living alone in the forest (to guard against rape), the rule requiring two years of celibacy before ordaining (to guard against potential pregnancy), etc.
  3. Some of the rules for Bhikkhunis, like some of the rules for Bhikkhus, may have just been laid down because it happened to be the Bhikkhunis who broke them. It seems some of the rules given to Bhikkhunis should equally be observed by Bhikkhus; some are anyway. It should be remembered that the rules were by no means meant to be exhaustive; they were laid down as problems arose; in the end, the Buddha said simply that whatever goes with the rules should come under the rules, and whatever does not, should not - otherwise there might be millions of rules for each sangha today.
  4. The most difficult rule for women, I think, is the one that requires Bhikkhunis to pay respect to Bhikkkhus. This seems to be due to a lack of familiarity with sangha practice; we are all required to pay respect to someone - there are strict rules regarding respect for seniority, regardless of the virtues of the person being respected; it isn't a sign that one is lesser than the one being respected, it is a means of keeping order and harmony. So, the two choices were to have Bhikkhus and Bhikkhunis pay respect solely by individual seniority, or to keep the groups separate and require all Bhikkhunis to pay respect to all Bhikkhus as junior group to senior group. The Buddha chose the latter, and I can only think it out of desire to keep the groups separate. I wouldn't personally have any problem paying formal respect to a bhikkhuni, but I would rather in that case that they all be put in a higher group, because I agree with the dangers of unregulated cross-gender interaction.
Of course, much of the argument for keeping the genders separate breaks down in modern society; it is always refreshing to see how little importance is placed on gender by Western societies. I think that is a good thing, and does make the rules seem a bit antiquated - these days it seems repressed homosexuality may even be more of an issue for the sangha than heterosexuality or gender-specific role-playing.
What has to be realized, and can often only be realized upon entering into the monastic life for oneself, is that they are only rules. When the Buddha set down the eight "heavy" rules as a requirement for his step-mother's ordination (the first Bhikkhuni ordination), her response was:
“seyyathāpi, bhante ānanda, itthī vā puriso vā daharo, yuvā, maṇḍanakajātiko sīsaṁnahāto uppalamālaṁ vā vassikamālaṁ vā atimuttakamālaṁ vā labhitvā ubhohi hatthehi paṭiggahetvā uttamaṅge sirasmiṁ patiṭṭhāpeyya; evameva kho ahaṁ, bhante, ānanda ime aṭṭha garudhamme paṭiggaṇhāmi yāvajīvaṁ anatikkamanīye”ti.
"Just as, Bhante Ananda, a woman or man, young, youthful, fond of adornment, washing their head, having received a water-lily-garland, a rain-flower-garland, or a rose-flower-garland, taking it with both hands would place it reverentially on the crown of their head; indeed, just so, Bhante Ananda, I receive with reverence these eight heavy rules, not to be transgressed for as long as life shall last.
-- Cv. 10
I think most monks would agree with her sentiment; rules are not a burden, they are a privilege that we take on. There are even some rules that monks take on themselves, as though the hundreds of rules they are required to keep are not enough.
Finally, it's clear that the Buddha placed little emphasis on the rules; at one point he stated that a dispute over the vinaya would be insignificant in comparison to a dispute over the dhamma; in one sutta in the Anguttara Nikaya, the Buddha says that if the rules seem to be too great a burden, one should keep in mind only the three trainings of morality, concentration and wisdom in terms of one's meditation practice; if one does that, any minor infractions committed are to be overlooked.

http://yuttadhammo.sirimangalo.org/
Avatar ImageansweredNov 7, 2011by Yuttadhammo7,345 points
editedNov 9, 2011by Yuttadhammo
Thanks, Bhante... Your last few words are encouraging for lay-people who don't follow the vinaya comprehensively


+6 votes

First of all to Anna's last question:
most of the rules, to be exact 181 rules are identical to those of the monks. some of the monks rules do not exist for Bhikkhunis such as for building huts or others. Some are in different parts of the rule sets for Bhikkhuns and Bhikkhunis. 85 rules are different from the Bhikkhus or do not exist in their set of rules.
Of those 85 rules a large number refers to ordaining others; some rules (5)are dealing with the wish of Bhikkunis to get a massage; a few are for the interrelation with laypeople i.e. that a Bhikkhuni is not allowed to do chores for laypeople; and some rules are regulating the Bhikkhunis behavior toward the Bhikkhus. The latter are to my understanding protecting the Bhikkhunis or both Bhikkhunis and Bhikkhus rather than discriminateing someone. They are helping to create a harmonious co-existence.
The monks, too, have rules how to behave with Bhikkhunis in their set of rules.
There is the set of 8 rules, the so called Garudhamma, the heavy rules. Many people believe them to be discriminative. Bhante Yuttadhammo mentioned them in his answer.
The Buddha's stepmother was ordained by accepting those rules. 6 of the rules are part of the patimokkha and are not discriminative if you understand them as given by the most compassionate being this world has seen.
Two rules could be misinterpreted as discriminating Bhikkhunis or putting them in an order lower than Bhikkhus: nuns shall greet any monks first and nuns are not to admonish monks. If one is unfriendly and doesn't like to greet or if one has a fault finding mind these rules can be hard, but I can see the benefit of those rules in their very harmonizing factor and accept them easily.
I do the greeting of monks and appreciate it very much. It creates a polite distance and joy on the monks side.
We are not forbidden to teach monks the Dhamma if they wish and besides admonishing there are many other very nice ways to let a monk know when he did something wrong. Admonishment and criticizm is regulated by the vinaya for monks as well as for nuns.
Some monks I met expressed that they don't want me to keep the Garudhammas because they doubt they are originally stated by the Buddha and think that parts of in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta must have been added or modified later. There are some logical reasons to belief so.
It is most likely that Mahapajapati was not the first Bhikkhuni. The Therigatha of Baddha, Thi 109, gives proof that at least one Bhikkhuni was ordained with the words “Ehi Bhikkhuni”, the form of ordination the Buddha used in the beginning. Mahapajapati, Buddhas Stepmother was ordained later, when this formula was not longer use. She came with 500 women and those were ordained by other monks with the normal ordination procedure used at that later time. When the other Bhikkhunis didn't let Mahapajapati take part in their ceremonies because they thought she is not ordained properly, the Buddha said she was ordained by accepting the 8 rules and he himself is her preceptor.
This makes me believe the Buddha gave those 8 Garudhammas only to his stepmother.
A reason to believe that the Garudhammas were all added later or that the 8 rules we know now as the Garudhammas were not the 8 rules by which Mahapajapati was ordained by the Buddha is: they are mostly rules of the patimokkha and must have thus a story of origin (The book where those stories are found is rare and I don't have a copy but I asked someone who has access to the book to check on the origin stories of the rules of concern). The monks who ordained the 500 other women who came along with Mahapajapati and the Buddha himself would have broken one of the those very same rules. That doesn't make sense and gives rise to the suspicion that those rules came into the patimokkha at a later time.
The ages of Mahapajapati, Ananda and Buddha do not quite match the happenings of the story presented in the sutta.
But if, despite all logic shortcomings, the story has happened as it is brought down to our times, we have to keep in mind that they were stated by the Buddha, the most compassionate being on earth, the wisest teacher known, one who did feel love to all living beings equally, one who declares in the Abhidhamma, that being male or female are just physical characteristics, who states that a woman's mind is as capable of liberation as a man's mind is. We all will not be able to be as compassionate or wise as he was but if we try to look at the rules (any of them without exception) without ill will, jelousy or aversion but with all compassion and wisdom we can bring in, we will find that they are all just there to create harmony and peace within the community and within every individuals heart and mind.
It is not easy for us with the defiled minds to understand what a being with a not defiled mind is trying to get through to us because we perceive everything with our defiled mind.
To what Bhante Yuttadhammo mentioned in his post about Bhikkhunis in the west. Yes, there is good support and a broad understanding of many monks and most laypeople that Bhikkhunis are an important part of the 4 fold Sangha and should be treated and supported equally. Females are the main supporters for Buddhism and monastics, many of them wish gender equality and like to support female monastics. But there seems to be a slight tendency for women to prefer to do offerings and prostrations to monks.
Recently a monk visited the Aranya Bodhi hermitage in USA, where I stayed for the vassa. The place is beautiful, very remote but equipped with only very basic infrastructure, in the 3rd year of the place's existence. The monk who visited just said: if this were a place for monks, there would be more support, it would all be much more developed already. Although I'm very happy about the existing support and recognition, I bet the monk was right. It will take some more time – if it ever happes – for Bhikkhunis and women in general to be regarded equal to Bhikkhus and men.
In general it can be certainly said that gender discrimination has its root in culture and traditions rather than in the Buddhas teaching. In countries like Thailand the discrimination of women and the arguments of monks why this is so is almost painful bizarre. Monks carry their sometimes weird personal beliefs and country culture out in to the world and present them as the Buddha's Dhamma. Fatal. But we have to see that those monks are just men rather than enlightened beings and it is of course extremely comfortable for them to be surrounded by women who think men were superior.
And in fact, many women do think they are inferior, in Asia, in the west and all over the world. Some, women and men are fighting for equality. Only, fighting is not the right way and equality is not the right goal. The only goal worthy of following after is liberation of mind In the very moment liberation is realized, all thoughts and quarrels about gender discrimination cease.
Phalañāṇī
Avatar ImageansweredNov 9, 2011by Phalanyani3,285 points

Thanks for your words; these comments relate to the part about the veracity of the text.
First of all, I think it is never a good idea to use a verse teaching (especially one given by a follower, not the Buddha) to try to cast doubt upon a prose teaching (especially one that is doctrinally explicit) - the former can be interpreted to mean any number of things, whereas the latter is generally quite explicit in its meaning. This case is a good example of such misunderstanding. The commentary to the bhaddākuṇḍalakesātherīgāthā goes:
arahattaṁ pana patvā tāvadeva pabbajjaṁ yāci. satthā tassā pabbajjaṁ anujāni. sā bhikkhunupassayaṁ gantvāna pabbajitvā phalasukhena nibbānasukhena ca vītināmentī attano paṭipattiṁ paccavekkhitvā udānavasena —
Which translates into, basically, that she became an arahant, then asked for the pabbajja; the Buddha allowed her pabbajja (probably saying "ehi, bhadda", as verse 109 says, not "ehi bhikkhuni", this occurring nowhere in the tipitaka, afaik), then she went to the place of the bhikkhunis and obtained pabbajja there, then she expressed the verses found in the Therigatha.
I agree that the eight rules are problematic as stated, but it is a mistake to automatically assume they were given otherwise than as stated, especially given they are quite explicitly stated as being told by the Buddha to his step-mother, claimed therein to be the first Bhikkhuni.
Many other potential explanations exist: a simple one would be that the Buddha told the bhikkhus to ordain the 500 bhikkhunis as an exception, since there were not, of course, any bhikkhunis to provide that part of the ordination yet. It may have originally been stated as "once both sanghas are established". Another possibility may be that this particular rule evolved over time; it may have originally been without the single word "ubhatosaṅghe", which removes the entire controversy, that word having perhaps been added once the occasion arose to require it (based as it was on applicants being shy telling bhikkhus about their bodily health).
As to the Buddha giving the garudhamma only to his step-mother, this really makes no sense, and is denied by the wording of the text, which doesn't talk about her at all, but "a bhikkhuni", as taking on the rules, which is consistent with the wording of the rules of the patimokkha.
As for the ages of those involved, I've heard about this one, but haven't had much time to track it down; The ordination is understood to have occurred not so long after the enlightenment, as with Ananda's ordination, so I don't understand the issue - I guess the assumption is that Ananda was the Buddha's full-time attendant (and thus ordained for 20 years) at the time, which is never stated in the text, afaics.
In short, I don't want to waste too much time arguing the veracity of the text, but it is always disheartening to hear of these arguments whereby the only conclusion one can come to is that the text one doesn't like is invalid. There is such an argument currently being made about MN 142, for example, and I think I well-embarrassed the monks arguing for its invalidity without much trouble on my part.
I know you don't hold strongly to these things, which is good, but I assume others around you do, so I address the issues here, hoping it will temper people's willingness to make rash judgment of the texts.
My feeling is we should be very careful before making hasty judgments about any text in the tipitaka; it has been compiled and arranged with such care, it is really hard to imagine such carelessness as accords with the general accusation of this generation of young Bhikkhus and Bhikkhunis.


I'm not a scholar and can read only English or German translations of Pali text and those are tainted by the thoughts and understanding of the translator, so I can't really say: this is written in the Suttas and I can't distinguish old Pali scripts from newer Versions.
Yes, you're right with assuming that I'm not holding to the doubts I or others express about the authenticy of the Parinibbana Sutta or the Garudhammas.
I hope I could make the most important point clear enough: Whether those rules were only for Mahapajapati or all the Bhikkhunis, whether the Buddha originally gave them there and then or they were added or modified later – that all doesn't really matter.
First, it is a waste of time lamenting or endlessly pondering over injustice, it's kind of off topic because it doesn't lead to liberation. And - changes can be made, slowly, with compassion and love in mind, when changing things by force has failed.
But more important than that is and I wish to repeat it here: If the Buddha made those rules, then they were made with more compassion and wisdom I and most other people will ever be able to develop. If stated by the Buddha, the rules are purely for the welfare of those who train them, for the benefit of the individual and the harmony of the community. What for us people with defiled minds is hard to imagine - there is not even the slightest trace of ill will in them, they are given with love. The ill will or the injustice comes to the rules by us interpreting them with defiled minds.
When we try to see them thus given out of compassion, wisdom and with love all the injustice disappears. After practicing the 8 Garudhammas for a while now, experience shows that they are really beneficial for the harmony of the community.
Now, what is the with MN142, why would this or parts of it be invalid? (Or is this a question as new topic in the forum?)


MN 142 is thought to be a later concoction of greedy bhikkhus, or some such thing. The smoking gun, they say, is that the Buddha is talking to Pajapati about a gift to the sangha of bhikkhunis, but Pajapati hasn't ordained yet (and so there are no bhikkhunis yet). How, they reason, could the Buddha be talking about Bhikkhunis when there were yet none?
This is another great example of jumping to unwarranted conclusions - the same sutta has the Buddha talking about a gift to the sangha after the Buddha attains parinibbana, so it is ridiculous to assume that the bit about the bhikkhunis was a mistake, or whatever.
I pointed out that the Buddha is said to have referred to the Bhikkhunis shortly after becoming enlightened. This was a surprise, and I was asked for a citation, which I gave. That quieted them down.
The point is, it is easy to jump to a conclusion you already want to reach, and quite dangerous therefore to do any such jumping. Better to stick to the texts unless absolutely incongruous, then admit that yes there might be a problem, but on the other hand we might just not understand the text.

Thank you both for your answers.
So, why do Buddhists prefer to support bhikkhus rather than bhikkhunis and bhikkhus? No/not enough recognition of bhikkhunis?

I'm surprised to hear that it persists in America, but my guess would be that means the bhikkhus are still patronized primarily by cultural Buddhist communities who listen to the bhikkhus say things like "women aren't meant to be monks", etc., tend to be rather sexist themselves, and so on.
It's surprising, because there are so many people, Westerners and Asians alike, who appreciate the Bhikkhunis; it must be that a) Westerners are still not as supportive of renunciants as Asian people, and b) the Asian Buddhist communities are controlled by the men (both in robes and out) - most of the Asians who support the Bhikkhunis seem to be women.
Of course, Phalanyani can give more insight into this than I - it apparently has something to do with the quality of the current Bhikkhunis themselves, but I don't think either of us really wants to go there

Not sure if I can give more insight into this - what I can give is a pseudo-psycological explanation.
It seems to me that women, although they are quite supportive in general in Asia and in the west, have an inherent tendecy to look up to males like as to their fathers. Wheras another woman is either regarded as the same or as a competition. It seems easier for women to follow a man or monk (however advanced or not he might be) and do what a man sais rather than to follow another women when she is not certainely, definately much higher in rank or spiritual development.
Interestingly men seem to have it easier to trust and ask a female monk as they would ask and trust their mothers.
They are much more enthusiastic in actually helping but often push their wifes to do it.
In an internet social network there are much more men then women who write and look for advice and many of them call me mother. so far non of the women I'm in contact with ever called me like that.
There are among the supporters women, who would rather want the men to be excluded from the community, strong women, not all of them but most feminists.
So far my observances and thoughts about the underlying tendencies.
Obviously there are much less Bhikkhunis then Bhikkhus in this world so far, hence there are neither so much highly developed nor so many bad behaved Bhikkhunis as there are good or bad Bhikkhus. In Mahayana countries where Bhiksunis are part of daily life there is no difference to notice, I was told, neither in the behaviour on monastic side nor in support from the lay side.
It has certainly to do with habits, Bhikkhunis are just not so present in peoples minds.
I sometimes heard, that people who give to the monks would expect that the latter then share with the nuns in equal parts. On almsround in Thailand people would usually keep something back to make sure that the Bhikkhuni gets enough, because a Bhikkhuni goes at the end of the line, after all the Bhikkhus. Different here in America, where monks and nuns go in order of seniority mixed in the line, people try to give the same amount to everybody.
And yes, certainly as Yuttadhammo sais: it might have to do with the quality of the current Bhikkhunis in as much as it seems a Bhikkhuni needs to be much more perfected to get the same amount of support as any (even quite unperfected) Bhikkhu.
I had to deal with quite some jelousy in the beginning, but it is just like that and I'm not going to change it. In the end it is a challenge that might help me on the path. And I trust that when Bhikkhunis are worthy of support it will come.


0 votes
Right. Otherwise I could take this MN 142 as an example that Bhikkhunis must have existed in the Buddhas order befor mahapajapati was ordained
But I will not conclude this now...
Avatar ImageansweredNov 10, 2011by Phalanyani3,285 points

0 votes

I think that there is another angle that has to be looked at in regards to the eight conditions. The Buddha lived in in India over two and a half thousand years ago in a paternalistic society in which full equality with women would have been seen as being silly, and not having the special conditions would have lead to friction with the surrounding culture that would have shortened the lifetime of the Dhamma-Vinaya.
I think that a key reason why the Buddha required that the Nuns come after the Monks in senority was that unless it was so, at least some Monks would have less than the Nuns which some of the Monks might take great issue with. Under such a situation, I don't think it would be too dificult to a schismatic like Devadatta would be able to start a full scale split in the Sangha, only much larger. Doing so would be disasterous, so I think the Buddha realized people's prejudices had to be partially apeased if the Dhamma-Vinaya were to have a chance to spread.
Avatar ImageansweredNov 14, 2011by Bakmoon1,111 points

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